Shabana Azmi

In conversation with Kavita A Chhibber

She is a legendary film actress, one of those rare ones who made a success of careers both in Mainstream and Parallel Art Cinema in India. She made it to Hollywood at a time no one had heard of an Indian actress across the seven seas. The daughter of an idealist poet the amazing Kaifi Azmi, whose political passions made the family live in a communist commune and colored the fabric of her life just a shade of red and taught her so much. She saw her fiery mother actress par excellence Shaukat Azmi, hold the home together as a mother and supportive wife and go out to earn a living at a time when women rarely worked. “I’m very predictable when it comes to activism. As the daughter of Kaifi and Shaukat Azmi, I will say it as it is, and speak up when I see injustice of any kind,” she says with a laugh. Recipient of the International Gandhi Peace Prize (an honor bestowed to Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu before her), winner of five national awards (when actors live a lifetime trying to collect one), and innumerable other accolades, the still exotically beautiful Shabana Azmi talks about life, films(“it’s all neurotic business be it Hollywood or elsewhere!”) and why a fatwa that was put on her head would never stop her from confronting any kind of fundamentalism, in an exclusive interview with Kavita Chhibber.

Your father is one of my favorite poets. His poetic voice became a vehicle for his strong political passions and yet the story of his love for your mom is what legendary romances are made of-writing letters to her in blood, the most amazing love songs came out of his pen. You said in an interview that until Penguin came out with the two volume collection of his romantic poetry you had quite forgotten that he was an amazing romantic poet, because of all the focus on his politics. Your mother’s autobiography of her life with Kaifi Azmi is now a full theatrical production and your husband Javed Akhtar (the famous poet, lyricist and screenplay writer) mentioned that Yash Chopra is now planning a film based on it. So what are your memories of growing up with Kaifi sahib?

Till the age of nine, we lived in a communist commune. Each family was allotted one room and a small balcony which my mother converted into a kitchen and eight families shared one bathroom. There was a hall that was called the red flag hall where all the meetings were held. We never felt any kind of deprivation because the children were considered common treasure. We grew up celebrating Id, Diwali, Christmas, Republic Day and so many major Indian festivals together. That was key to my growing up with a great sense of respect for India’s pluralism and her composite culture.

Having a father who was a poet, was pretty perplexing for me as a kid. He never went out in a suit and tie like other dads, but would wear this kurta pajama and sit at home writing at the table. I didn’t know what to make of him or what to tell my friends about his occupation. Then one day his picture appeared in the paper and I acknowledged him gleefully and of course was very proud of the fact that no other father but mine had made it there! I think that was an early lesson of turning a supposed disadvantage into an advantage by focusing on his media recognition!

On a serious note, I still remember that when I was about 7 and in a convent school, I wanted a doll with blonde hair and blues eyes just like all the other kids there. Instead my father brought a black doll and said to me-black is as beautiful. It was an early lesson in tolerance.

There was so much about him that I didn’t know until my mother wrote her memoirs. Amazing acts of courage, selfless and tireless work for the masses that he never talked about. I remember one such incident clearly. For the last thirty years of his life he was paralyzed and yet he worked tirelessly to uplift the village of Mizwan near Azamgarh in UP, where he was born. He turned it into a model village and spoke so little about it. The incident that stands out happened at a railway station near the village. The authorities wanted to close it down. That would have meant that the farmers would not have been able to take their produce outside. Kaifi sahib went on the railway tracks and sat there in his wheelchair forcing a train to stop at that station. That was an unimaginable act of courage for a paralyzed man. The railway minister came to know about it. Today that station, thanks to my father, has all major cities like Delhi, Bombay and Calcutta, connected by train.

I believe there is an interesting story of how you got admitted into Bombay’s leading convent school – Queen Mary’s.

Well I have no recollection of this but my mother tells me that initially they had admitted me in a municipal school which I hated. When my report card came I had scored a zero in every subject. My mother said Shabana doesn’t seem retarded so something is wrong. At that time my father’s entire salary went to the communist party and he was given 40 rupees to run his household every month. He decided I should go to Queen Mary’s where my monthly tuition fee was 30 rupees but he was adamant that he will work extra hours to fund my education there. I did go on to become a straight A’s student. The pre-condition at the school was that the parents of the child should know how to speak English. Neither of my parents did. So the poet Sardar Jaffry’s wife Sultana masqueraded as my mother and another friend of my father’s Munish Narayan Saxena masqueraded as my father.

This charade went on till I was in 10th grade when the Vice Principal who was very fond of Hindi went to a Mushaira (a gathering of poets) and then said to me the next day-your father looked very different from the man I remember.” That’s because he is recovering from typhoid”, I said glibly and ran for my life!

I also remember an incident where I used to hate Math and my Math teacher hated me. Before one of the exams I pretended to have a stomach ache and was put into the sick room. The teacher wasn’t buying it and said I was faking it. I gave such a stellar performance that it landed me in the hospital. I still didn’t let up and the doctors made me drink barium so that they could run tests the next day. Of course I ran away from the hospital in the morning and came home!

No wonder Satyajit Ray said as a dramatic actress you had no peer!

Well actually my acting career started and didn’t quite take off- at the age of three! I was enacting the nursery rhyme-Hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle/ the cow went over the Moon. I was playing the cow-alas instead of going over the Moon I fell on the Moon, who was another three year old girl. She got up and gave me a tight slap. I slapped her in return and the curtains had to be brought down hastily!

You have trained at the then prestigious Pune Film Institute. What did they not teach you there?

That it would be such a mad house when you entered mainstream Film Industry at Bombay. I still remember this film I was doing with Rajesh Khanna. We were enacting page 1 of a scene not knowing what page 2 held, because Kader Khan who was the screenplay writer was also acting in another film. So there he was at another studio acting and writing page 2 in between his shots. I really think actors in this industry should be given a big pat on the back, if they still manage to turn out a credible performance. We were made to believe at the institute that we would get fully bound scripts and the time to research our character and build on it. Nothing was farther than the truth.

Lets come to “Ankur” – your very first film that netted you the national award. Director Shyam Benegal told me you were his fourth choice after Waheeda Rehman who was a family friend, but she was a little worried because she wasn’t sure she should make a film like that which was unconventional, being then at the peak of her career. Then he asked Sharada, the award-wining South Indian actress, but her husband put his foot down, then Aparna Sen but she decided against it because she felt that she would not be able to speak the dialect. Then another assistant mentioned you-you had had just passed out of the national film institute. Benegal said, “The moment I saw her I knew she will do justice to the film.” What memories do you have of the film?

Shyam Benegal was brilliant. When I went on the sets, I found that I was the only girl in a male dominated unit but they made me feel very safe and secure. I remember that when we started shooting I could not sit on my haunches, which was very important for this village girl character. Shyam banished me from the dining table and said I was to eat my food in a corner sitting on my haunches to get into the skin of the character. A few days later a group of students came to see the shooting. They saw me in the corner and said where’s the heroine? I said she’s unwell and couldn’t come. They asked- What role are you playing? I said I’m playing the ayah-they said okay and went away most disinterested in me. Shyam overheard that and said today you have earned your place back on the dining table because you really look the part!

This was also the first time I had gone into a real village. The village women would laugh at seeing me struggle with the grindstone and how to grind things the right way. They became friends and guides though they never stopped saying-what’s the use being so educated when you don’t know how to handle a grindstone and a pestle!

I think the scene that stands out in my mind is when my husband comes home, to find me pregnant. He doesn’t know its from another man and seeing his innocence and joy I burst into tears. Somehow I just froze and couldn’t emote. Instead of saying Don’t worry, it will be okay, you’ll do fine-which probably would have made me more tense, Shyam just asked the sets be made ready, made me sit down and started talking quietly about this woman he had met after the Bangladesh famine who had lost everything and was looking around anxiously for her lost daughter. The poignance of that story just made an impact, I found myself relaxing and a sudden moisture and sensitivity to the story coursed through me. Shyam saw the tears in my eyes and said-she is ready now-take her before the camera. That went on to become the most memorable scene in the film.

Which brings me to Smita Patil and constant comparisons between the two of you. Shyam said “Smita had an instinct that worked for her. She was a very intuitive actress and she never consciously worked on her part. Shabana is a very thinking person so she works out her roles… as a dramatic actress of course Shabana has no peers.”

Look I’m a professionally trained actor. I have always watched my mother doing a lot of homework for all her roles and I do the same. When I read a script, more than what the character is saying, I look for what the silences are saying. You have to try and find out all those things that are not necessarily in the script. However when you are finally before the camera, the technique should not be visible. It should only take you to the point where your character is supported by it while you present its truth. I get a little impatient with actors who are called instinctive actors. They may be talented and lucky, but I consider them very lazy. If they did their homework, they would enhance that talent so much more. Amitabh Bachchan is a prime example of what I’m talking about. I remember working with him in “Main Azad Hoon”. After every scene he would fret, wondering if he could have done it this way or that way. I’d tell him –Amit stop fretting and forget about all the variations, the camera has already changed its angle but in spite of being such a hugely successful actor he has never let up on doing his homework and came ready to enact each scene hundred different ways.

“Mandi”, a black comedy about a group of prostitutes, had you play Rukmini Bai the Madam of the brothel. You were pretty young then. You actually visited three different types of brothels in three different cities – Bombay, Delhi and Hyderabad.

That is right. In Bombay the prostitutes all adored the actress Rekha and wanted to be like her. In Delhi they had a certain language and courtesan like culture that they adhered to, but I couldn’t get over Hyderabad. We met this young girl who was dressed simply in a nylon sari and had no make up on-she was supporting a family of eight. She performed to a song I had enacted in the film Fakira-a sweet romantic number-dil me tujhe chupa ke, kar loongi main band ankhen pooja karoongi teri (I will hide you in my heart, close my eyes and worship you). This girl did the most lewd gestures that left nothing to the imagination about the kind of worshipping she was planning to do. I also found that most women were pretty comfortable with their lifestyle. In fact some of them said-when you talk of rehabilitating us what do you mean by that? We don’t want to wash utensils at 150 rupees a month.” Again for Lekh Tandon’s Doosri Dulhan I talked to about 10-12 streetwalkers about their lives. When you research these kinds of stories, you also become accountable to these people. You can’t just extract their experiences from them and walk away. I learnt so much during preparation for both films. After they were released, each time my car crossed Juhu beach, these street walkers would come running saying ‘Shabana didi, Shabana didi”. People must be wondering at the company I was keeping!

Another turning point was the making of the film “Arth”. In fact you did two films around the same theme. Arth, where the woman after being totally dependent on her husband comes into her own and refuses to take him back, when he is unfaithful even when he is repentant, and the other Yeh Nazdeekiyan, where she does go back. It was Arth which became a blockbuster and was quite a novel and may I say risky film to make in the eighties.

In fact the distributors said they loved Arth but wanted to change the ending. They felt that a woman not taking her husband back after he comes back repentant would not go down well with the audience, but Mahesh Bhatt and I stuck to our guns and said we made the movie for the sole purpose of showing that a woman can, after such rejection, become a strong individual with a mind of her own, The surprise was that Arth went on to be a huge hit and with a cult following, and Yeh Nazdikiyan where I did go back to my husband flopped. Twenty years later Arth still evokes an emotional response from people world wide especially women in my age group who tell me wherever I go, that the film gave them such emotional strength to make decisions that were tough.

“Fire” was a movie that evoked a lot of criticism. Many lesbians felt that to portray two women who disenchanted with their marriage turn to a sexual and emotional relationship was wrong. That homosexuality is a biological thing and not brought about by dysfunctional relationships.

I agree with what this section of lesbians is saying, but frankly this movie is about these two women and not everyone who is gay in the world. This is much more than a story of two women in a lesbian relationship. It was two women struggling against the stranglehold of the structure of marriage that was not working for them. The message here is that if you can stop condemning people just because they are different from you, and accept these two women who were the” other” and empathize with them then may be you will take that second step in accepting and empathizing with other nationalities, ethnic groups, gender, race and religions all of which is really important to pursue in today’s increasingly intolerant world order. In fact there was also a huge section of the gay and lesbian community who thanked us profusely for making a movie like this because finally this issue was pulled out from under the carpet and more than that it was dealt with extreme sensitivity.

So you shaved off your head and then the next thing we knew you were out of Water, as was Nandita Das. I heard rumors that you didn’t want to do it anymore.

That is not true. I very much wanted to do it but the distributors said they would not touch the film if it had Deepa, Nandita and me together. In fact when Deepa wrote me an email explaining her predicament and wanting me to be released from the film, I wrote her back saying I understood and that for me it was more important that the film get made. And then I added..No ! I’m lying! I really want to do the part really really badly and I challenge you to find a better actress. You’ll never find a better actress than me to do this part!” She laughed when she read that. But today I’m really glad that it is receiving so much acclaim though I really wished I had been part of the film. I think after the “Fire” controversy the Deepa-Nandita-Shabana trio together literally became too hot to handle.

I have always been struck by the fact that in spite of being an exotically beautiful woman, your looks never came in the way of your acting, like they did the case of Hema Malini, and now Aishwarya Rai, who have been considered mediocre actresses and all looks in spite of having done some good work.

Thank you but for the longest time I was considered a plain Jane by the Indian media. They would say incessantly-bechari ki shakal toh aise hi hai(poor thing her looks are very average). I was very self conscious about my buck teeth and would keep covering my mouth when I smiled. I’d tell my mom, if only I had perfect teeth, I would be a much better actress. It was the same thing with Mithun Chakravarty. He was so self conscious about his buck teeth until everyone started raving about his dazzling smile. It was Mahesh Bhatt who told me to stop covering my mouth-that a smile had everything to do with the eyes and not the mouth. Then I would step out of India and would be called a ravishing beauty at Cannes and Berlin and other film festivals and would keep looking over my shoulder wondering who they were referring too. For the longest time even in commercial Cinema I would try to be the stereotypical mainstream heroine dressing up that way, until I realized it was just not me. I think the change came when I started getting comfortable in my own skin and realized beauty has nothing to do with the way you look, but the way you are from within.

Let’s talk about the toughie Morning Raga and the movie that netted you your fifth National Award – “Godmother.” Ravi Shankar praised you for the first one saying he could not believe you had not learnt Carnatic vocal music – and the second one was a multilayered character which showed how women too become corrupt because of the system.

I had to play a Carnatic vocalist in a short time and it was such a tough challenge that I wanted to run away from the movie. But then I also love a challenge so that is perhaps what made me stay. I give total credit to Ranjini who is my co-star and plays the role of a violin player. She created modules for me on the basis of which I learnt the music. If I had studied under a trained teacher, it would have taken me ages to learn everything but it was Ranjini’s persistence and dedication that worked. There were days I would go to the Parliament in the morning and practice in the evenings and be so disheartened because I wasn’t getting it and then wake up to find I got it. There were no ways about this role-I had to get the singing right before I could do anything with it emotionally. When Ravi Shankar, Anup Jalota and Alka Yagnik all praised me it was very heart warming.

Godmother was a movie that I had a hard time with, especially with the fact that the characterization went against my personal beliefs. The lead character is a woman who becomes corrupt because of the system. In fact a lot of feminists were very upset with me. They said here we are saying that if more women joined politics they would make a huge difference and here you are portraying a woman who succumbs to the system and becomes corrupt. But I give so much credit to the director and dialogue writer Vinay Shukla who said that the movie is not to be seen from the key of feminism but to showcase how community politics can lead to exclusivist and not inclusive ideals. Of course I realized that sometimes your political beliefs may be in conflict with the character you portray but I’m very glad I got to do this film. Its rarely that you get to play such roles with so many shades and complexities in mainstream cinema. Vinay also told me to remember that however I played this role, I must make sure I played it within the norms of mainstream cinema. So I was able to make the character larger than life and yet totally credible.

At the same time I do have to say I will not do certain kind of roles, no matter what the incentive. I will never play a woman who is down and out with no redemption. In fact Aparna Sen said to me that my persona off screen is so dominant, that it is becoming harder to give me roles that are not predictable. Whenever I play a character, people presume that it will be either that of a strong woman or a woman who struggles but finds herself stronger in the end.

You have been a strong political and social activist. You have had a fatwa on your head for locking horns with Imam Bukhari. Yet a certain section of Hindus have accused both Javed Sahib and you for not being warmer towards the Hindus even though you call yourselves secular Muslims. And yet you are fearless. Also, would it have been better to have a party backing instead of being a lone woman crusader against so many causes.

I think the resource base for activism is life itself so when you involve yourself in social issues you enrich your self as a person and deepen your understanding of life. This in turn enriches the characters I play giving depth and complexities to them which I may not have had, if I had not been an activist. While not having a party backing can be a disadvantage, it also frees me to speak the whole truth. If I had a party behind me then there would have been a danger for my truth to become selective truth. Of course fortunately since being an actress gives me visibility people do hear me out in spite of not having a party to back me up.

Javed and I have been the favorite targets for both the Muslim and Hindu fundamentalists for a long time now. The fact remains that the fight is not between Hindus and Muslims, its between ideologies of extremism and ideologies of tolerance and moderation. When the secular liberals start establishing their credibility and occupying center stage then the extremists on both sides start attacking them. When I spoke about the Hijab Imam Bukhari instantly said who is she to comment? She is not even a Muslim. She has no right to speak about the hijab. When he said all Indian Muslims should join the Jihad in Afghanistan and I said to him on live TV that I would arrange for him to be dropped to Kandahar- his problem will be solved and so will ours, he said I don’t listen to a nachne gane wali tawaif(I don’t listen to a singing dancing nautch girl) The TV bleeped out the tawaif part, but what was most interesting was that I received a huge amount of mail from Muslims saying thank you for standing up to him-he is not our leader. And I’m being accused of being a Hindu beater?

There are no two ways about it. You HAVE to oppose fundamentalism of all hues-it doesn’t matter whether it’s a majority or minority-they are myriad images of each other. I’m glad that Javed’s organizations Muslims for secular democracy and Citizens for Justice and Peace are doing a lot of good work in that direction.

One of the issues closest to your heart has been the fate of slum dwellers.

I have been working with an organization called Nivara Hakk for the past 20 years on the issue of slum dwellers. We have been able to influence policy by making them understand that razing slums wont solve the problems, They will rebuild them elsewhere. Today we have the largest single project in all of Asia of rehabilitating slum dwellers, where we have created 13000 tenements for slum dwellers and are ready to hand over the first 5000 homes to them.

You’ve been honored at the World Economic forum and have spoken before so many students at premium academic institutions here in the US. What perception of India and Bollywood do the people carry?

I think its obvious that India is on the brink of being a formidable economic power but my concern is that the benefits of that economic rise should impact the weakest of the weak. Otherwise the divide between the rich and the poor will keep on increasing.

There really isn’t much awareness of Hindi cinema in academic institutions much as we would like to believe otherwise and tom-tom that. Except for a few NRI pockets whatever Americans know about Hindi cinema, is based on the term Bollywood and the word is associated with singing and dancing. That is okay up to a certain extent but I keep insisting that as the world becomes a global village it is important to understand cultures within their own paradigms. I did say that I’m tired of the way the West perceives India but having said that I must also add that it is India’s business to educate the West and let them know that this is a country with many complexities and centuries of rich culture that goes way beyond the song and dance.

So what will it take for an Indian film win at the Oscars?

They HAVE to cut down the length first and foremost. I do have to admit that I’m not so hung up on some Indian film winning at the Oscar as being the biggest deal. Our self esteem as filmmakers should never depend on that one thing.

If you were to change anything about your life what would it be?

I think I have been at the right place at the right time and have lived a very rich life, but if I could do it all over again, I would learn to cook and play the piano. I regret not having learnt a musical instrument.