His multi-talented writer/director father Surendra Kaul wrote the block buster Namak Halal, his uncles were the legendary and charismatic actor Raaj Kumar, Mahesh Kaul who introduced Hema Malini in Sapnon Ka Saudagar, and Hiren Kera who made Jab Jab Phool Khile and Raja Sahib, and his cousin, the eminent film maker Mani Kaul.
Its hardly surprising then that director Pavan Kaul considers film making as essential to his life as breathing.
In an exclusive interview with Kavita Chhibber, the director whose new film Bhram is soon to hit theaters, talks about his journey, and why if he was to cut a deal with anyone, it would be to be assured that he would be making films as long as he lived.
Your father’s journey was obviously different from yours. What are the memories you have of your father?
My father was the handsomest man I have ever seen, a super athlete and he could talk to you about any subject for hours. The actor Raj Kumar was his first cousin and perhaps my father was inspired to come to Bombay after seeing Raj Kumar’s success in the film industry. Of course my uncle Mahesh Kaul was also a very popular director in those days, having made films with Raj Kapoor and Shammi Kapoor. He had also acted in Guru Dutt’s film Kagaz ke Phool. My father wanted to be a director but ended up being a writer. He used to write scripts, perhaps with the idea of making them into films. His narrative skills were so powerful that when he spoke you could actually see the film unfolding before your eyes. However he didn’t want to pander to the rules of the film industry. No matter which era of films you take, it is never only about talent. You have to suck up to people, be in the right place at the right time, network aggressively, make the right kind of friends, move in the right kind of circles, and my father was never the kind to run after fame and fortune at the expense of either compromising his principles or his dignity. He wrote a lot for which he didn’t get any credit.
I believe Namak Halal was one of those films?
Yes, my father Surendra Kaul wrote ‘Namak Halal’. I still have the hand written pages with every scene including the “I can talk English, I can walk English….”. My mother and I remember laughing till tears rolled down, when he narrated the ‘Daddu’ scenes etc., But my father never let us see the tears he must have shed silently when his name never featured in the credit title for the script of the film, which went on to become one of the greatest hits of all time. What he was paid was a pittance to say the least. He died of cancer in 1997. His contribution to many great films remains unknown.
There was another very big hit in the 70s where the role of the hero was totally based on the role my father had written for my uncle Raj Kumar and he even had the script registered. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings so I wont mention names, but one of the writers met me many years later at a party and when I introduced myself to him and told him I was Surendra Kaul’s son, the gentleman who was a bit high, embraced me, told me how wonderful a man my father was and then mentioned that film. In their struggling days, many writers were his friends and I suppose he narrated the story and that main character’s role was then lifted by someone else.
Still I don’t want to see my father as some kind of a tragic figure who didn’t get his due because he never saw himself as that. I think he really didn’t chase success in the conventional sense of the word, and at the end of the day he was happy with what he had. I personally of course feel that he deserved much greater recognition than he got. But I think the satisfaction of knowing that you did not compromise on your ideals is a big deal. Success eventually is about making the right choices even when it’s a tough call.
I hear from many children of film personalities that they were kept away as much as possible from the film parties and other influences.
It was impossible to keep the film industry away from me because so many members of my family were in films and most of their friends who often dropped in were also from the film industry. Our neighbor those days was singer Geeta Dutt. She was separated from Guru Dutt at that time but her children Tarun, Arun and Neena were known to me. They would invite us kids to their house to watch a movie on a projector which was such a huge deal for us. I saw Guru Dutt a couple of times, but of course did not know what a great film maker he was and that I would grow up to be such a big fan of his work. Geeta Dutt was this mystery figure who never spoke when I went to her house. She was no ordinary person. To me she became this beautiful tragic figure, with her long hair that was always loose, and she would quietly walk in and start the film for us. I now realize that silence was perhaps created by the alcoholic haze she probably was in. I’m sure her children were exposed to so much. Children are like sponges-they absorb much more than parent may think and I was no exception
There was tremendous romance attached to her persona. On the other side our neighbor was the famous actor Jayant and his two sons Imitiaz and Amjad Khan.
So when did you decide you wanted to be in films? And what did your father say?
My earliest memories go back to about age eleven, when books I’d read, suddenly seemed to be moving images. My recollection of having turned pages would be missing, yet the story would unfold pictorially. To this day I edit films in my head.
I used to watch a lot of films. The two films that really left an impact on me in those initial days were Kagaz ke Phool, which I call a flawed masterpiece-flawed but a masterpiece nevertheless, and Midnight Cowboy. I saw that film three times in consecutive shows back to back. I was very young then and didn’t really understand that film in totality but now I realize that Midnight Cowboy was a very sophisticated film for its time. What drew me to that film was the intensity of the characters played by Jon Voight and Dustin Hoffman. There was a loneliness surrounding their characters that left me spell bound. I had grown up with Geeta Dutt’s tragic persona surrounding me and the sad and darker side of life has always tugged at me.
Midnight Cowboy has such technical brilliance. In those days you didn’t have any video tapes or DVDs that you could buy and keep with you, so one saw the film several times to imprint and capture all that one could, in one’s head.
My father used to see me hanging around sets and film people and around that time I started dabbling in photography. I was about 19 then. One time I took a picture of a rich Arab Sheikh from the Gulf and somehow the picture turned out so well that he offered me a partnership in a photo studio that he wanted to open. The offer was very lucrative and I said yes and handed him my passport to get my visa. It was then that my father said to me, “Son I think you are making a mistake by leaving. I think you have a future in films here.” I had never heard my father ever say that to me before and that was a huge thing for me. I shelved the idea of going to the gulf and stayed back.
So your father took you on as assistant and then you also worked as assistant with Raj Sippy. What did you learn during those apprenticeship years?
I was so hungry for knowledge that I used to grab every opportunity to be everywhere. When I was working with Daddu as we used to call Raj Sippy, I used to take on as much work as possible. I would work in all departments of filmmaking; take on as many responsibilities as possible, handling jobs that normally required four people, and was generally curious about anything and everything that could accelerate my growth. The noisy, dusty studio environment and the smell of celluloid in film editing rooms had become my life support. Many of the other assistants thought I was very generous and kind for taking on so many chores, and doing a great service to everybody but actually I was being so selfish. I learnt a lot and am still learning from every one. In fact sometimes the best ideas can come from unexpected sources, like say a spot boy. The other day my 18 year old son commented about a particular dialogue in Bhram and I was taken aback. I never thought that kind of a dialogue would appeal to an 18 year old. I love getting inputs from every body though eventually I do what I feel is right.
You have dabbled in all kinds of direction – from acclaimed ads, TV serials, films for videos and feature films. What memories do you carry of it all?
I think at the time you are making the film, you are so caught up with the day to day functioning, the hassles that before you know it, it’s all over. The realization that you created something beautiful comes only later. I have enjoyed every moment of whatever I have made from ads to documentaries to serials to feature films.
Nari Hira was perhaps the only one who had a good degree of success with video films. In two years he produced 18 films out of which I made seven and the rest were split between 5 other directors.
The films did very well because the stories were very different from mainstream Hindi films. The budget was very limited as was the location. We had to basically shoot in these two Bungalows on the beach owned by Nari Hira, and so it was a huge luxury if at times I got to shoot outside.
There used to be a hue and cry from other directors asking why I was being allowed to shoot outside when they weren’t! It also taught me to innovate. One time for the film Naqli Chehra, I rigged up a camera at the end of a long pole which was made of the thickest gage of water pipe that I could lay my hands on. At the end of it we found a way to attach the video camera. Then the other end was mounted on the conventional camera trolley. I pushed it right through the window of the car all the way to the other side and shot Supriya Pathak and her co star Dalvinder walking towards the camera and the camera tracks back and comes from one side and then the other with the doors closed. You have jimmy jibs to do that work now. Then we had nothing. People kept asking me how I did that but of course it was my trade secret!
I have done many innovations that made scenes look visually stunning even when there was no equipment to support that kind of shot taking. I did that to keep myself inspired even when I was making film after film in the same location and I’m the kind of person who loves outdoors. I even prefer to shoot interiors on locations and not the sets.
My doing TV serials was the result of what happened with my debut feature film Chor aur chand, where film politics ended in the final product not being what it should have been. Shahrukh Khan had heard the climax scene and he agreed to work in my next film, and we started Jaadu with him and Raveena Tandon.
During the making of ‘ Jaadu’ (my 2nd film) I made the blunder of refusing 3 films offered to me only to ensure that I give this film my all. Unfortunately, the producers went awry with their plans and the film got shelved. I was left with nothing except my dreams lighting up the darkness ahead.
I turned away from films, promising myself to make one again only when I had complete control. I decided to produce/direct on television until that happened. I refused to think of it as a ‘smaller medium’ simply because it also translated as creativity. I made ‘Sadma’ the first ‘psychological’ thriller which was linear and not episodic. It went on to getting lofty TRP’s in the first few weeks itself and a Screen awards nomination as Best director for me. No. I did not win it. The person who did was not featured in the nominations at all, but had recently been appointed as programming head of the then leading television channel.
Soon after ‘Kaash’, for Sony was the first serial with songs, I am asked for tapes of which even today, shot totally outdoors at a time when it was unheard of on TV. My friends thought me to be insane since I took a unit of 60 to far off Chakrata in U.P. and shot sometimes just one scene a day..carrying cranes & huge lights etc.,far away atop the mountains. I treated it as I would have a film.. which also left me financially in a tight spot and friends feeling vindicated that their warnings weren’t heeded. But a venture that I gave my name to had to be backed by my honesty as a professional. It was for a long time used as a yardstick by Sony bosses.
I was offered ‘Mano ya na Mano ‘by Ekta Kapoor. Previous to that the genre of horror./thrillers lacked respectability. They were slotted as Ramsay stereotypes. I experimented with stars of the small screen, realistically shot scenes, and emotionally peppered stories. It went on to being one of the firsts in the Balaji success story.
‘Shhh…Koi Hai..’ on Star Plus was a horror weekly that often gave the Saas-bahu dailies a run for their money. I had attempted to create a matrix which I humbly accept went down well with the audiences. Supernatural thrillers were now an integral part of television programming.
And then Koi Hai brought you back to making another feature film after a gap of a decade.
Yes I had decided that I would not make another feature film until I had better control over things. So ten years went by and I did not make even the slightest effort to return to making feature films. But then the producers of Koi Hai felt that they should be making a film with me and they offered me “Sssh”. I would have preferred more lead time, but I had to continue shooting for television because Koi Hai was doing so well that the channel Star Plus was not letting me quit. The story line was given to me by the producers and they also had that title registered. I didn’t have much to do with the choice of subject but I added whatever I could in terms of giving my input to the writers during sittings.
It was a blast doing the film because almost 95 percent of it was shot outdoors in lovely locations like Simla, Manali and Bangkok so visually it is beautiful because of that. The best part of working with a young crowd like Dino Morea, Tanisha, Karan Nath, Gaurav and others was the kind of energy they bring. There was never a dull moment or a jaded attitude of “been there done that” as happens with some senior actors.
So what changes did you see in the film industry? I hear from veteran actors that things were very different in their times. People were closer, things were less cut throat, and many actors forged close ties.
I think every generation feels things are not the way they used to be. But as someone who has watched the film industry since the age of six or seven years old and the many conversations I have heard between my father and my uncles and my father’s friends from the film industry I think it was no different then. People just like to romanticize their own times. In every era there is good and bad and every one follows their own nature and frankly are in the industry by choice.
The only thing where it is different is in terms of technology which has improved tremendously and that is a great blessing. Today one can create some stunning scenes with the kind of equipment and technology we have.
I heard a lot of corporate money is being pumped into films and also television in India seems to have come a long way from the good old Chitrahaar days.
I hate to disappoint you but the corporate money is only being pumped into films and scripts that are backed by big stars especially if they have given their dates. The corporate houses then gamble and sign multi film deals, thinking that if one of the films is a hit they have the director or actors signed up for a particular amount. No one from the corporate world cares to appreciate talent or vision and believe me there are some brilliant actors, directors and writers in the industry who are running from pillar to post and not getting any response. Every one blames the public for the poor quality of films or television serials but it is up to the makers to change the taste of the audience. If we decided to make sensible cinema, market and release it properly and not just go crazy releasing thousands of prints on day one, maybe things will change. When a film maker releases 800 prints of his films, what message is it sending? That is he insecure about his film and wants to retrieve his money in the first three days. Why not make a good film and release may be 5 or 10 prints and give it the chance to run for a few weeks? But I don’t think anyone is interested in doing that. Its all about filling the maximum number of seats in the first week. I miss the days when films would run for months and become, silver and golden jubilee or platinum jubilee hits. I hope things will change in the future but its not happening right now.
As far as television is concerned the quality of programs that you see is so regressive and pathetic that I can’t bring myself to watch television most of the time. I quickly surf once in a while. Even the news is limited to sensationalizing things and focusing on the private life of some celebrity, or celebrity break up.
You were away from film making for 10 years until Sssh came along, because you wanted better control.. Now your new film Bhram is ready for release next month. You had a good experience early with Nari Hira, whose company is producing the film. Do you have more control now?
I think my attitude towards the word “ Control” has changed. Even if I had all the freedom in the world to make my film any way I wanted, with the actors, the technical team, the story writers of my choice, I still will not be able to make the film exactly as I want it, because everyone brings their own life’s experience, their own perception to the film. If you were to give me a script and say-Pavan make this exactly as I have written it, I won’t be able to do it, because I will react to each line with my own perception and what I may have experienced in my life. I will end up putting my own sensibilities, my own emotions. A film is telling your own story through the stories of others. At the same time it is impossible to make a film which does not become mine while I’m making it. Every character I create, will have something from my life, my personality. A romantic scene may carry something I experienced or imagined, a negative scene may carry some resentment, some anger I felt at some phase of my life.
Again I can’t control weather conditions, I can’t control the mood on a given day of my actors. Control therefore is an illusion and if you stop obsessing about control, you actually start looking forward to seeing what others will contribute to the film through their own sensibilities.
Bhram hits cinema theaters soon. Where do you think you are today?
I have never run after work. I have always allowed work to come to me. Maybe in some ways I’m like my father. But my passion is making films. I don’t think I have even touched the tip of the iceberg when it comes to making what I want to make. When I’m not making films, I’m watching films. I feel like my life stops in between and I start to breathe again only when I start a new film. If I could have it my way-if I could strike a deal with anyone, I would only ask for the assurance that I will be making films as long as I live. It’s the only thing I know how to do well and the only thing I want to do for the rest of my life.2008